Mod Post: Community Rules, Revisited
With over 2,500 members, it's time for us to revisit the community rules. This might lead to general shifts in what community rules are important and not important to our members, and thus, what rules we enforce. Mod Kristie and I would like your input on what rules you find important, what repercussions each rule should have, and how we can improve our moderator abilities.
Please feel free to use the comments section to give us constructive criticism, tell us we're doing a great job or voice your concerns. If you tell us you hate our moderating style, we promise not to hold it against you. I am a strong believer in putting on my "mod hat" and separating my personal opinions from the way I moderate. Likewise, I'll never tell you that you're getting a warning or about to be banned just because you hate outdoor weddings (I had an outdoor wedding). :-) So feel free to tell us how we're really doing. As always, your feedback is welcome at any time; comment to us in this post or e-mail us if you prefer that instead (lizzie9208 at livejournal dot com and/or kageneko at livejournal dot com). Our info is also in the Community Info.
For each of the following sections, you'll find a description of the rule along with our current method of enforcement. Then you'll be able to give us your input on how important you feel it is for us to enforce that rule and what action you think we should take when people break that rule in the future.
For the radio buttons, "1" means that the importance of us enforcing the rule is low, while "5" means it's really important to you that we enforce that particular rule. If you choose that a particular rule should be enforced by "Warning(s), then ban from the community", and then pick that a member should get "Unlimited warnings (no further consequence)", then that means that you think a member should never get banned for that offense. We only ban people in rare instances, after repeated offenses and when they continue to cause drama.
NOTE: You are welcome to change your answers at any time by clicking on the "Poll #xxxxx" link and then the "Fill Out Poll" link at the top of the page. I had to separate the polls into sections, so you'll have to hit your browser's "back" button to fill out each poll, or just right-click on each individual poll link and open it up in and new window/tab. Sorry about that!
Section 1: Personal Attacks- Eg: "snotty brats like you"; "people as delicate and hypocritical as you," "that's retarded," etc. Currently, we give two warnings for this offense and then ban the member if they continue to harass and attack our members.
Section 2: Offensive Generalizations- Eg: "white trash"; "farmers all tend to be alcoholics and get piss drunk at weddings"; "anyone pays more than $X for a dress is a selfish princess bridezilla with a filthy rich Daddy and doesn't know the value of hard earned money," etc. Currently, we give two warnings for this offense and then ban the member if they do not cooperate.
Section 3: Off-Topic Posts and One Line Squees - Eg: "Look at this HOTTT picture of my kitty cat!"; "I lost my job today. Then I went to get a root canal! Can this day get any worse?!"; "I'm getting married in 300 days!!!" Currently, we comment to the poster asking her/him to remedy the situation by either 1) making the post on-topic by adding some wedding-planning information to it, or 2) deleting it. If the poster does not comply after a reasonable amount of time, we delete it for her/him. We do this because this is NOT a general discussion group; we're called
weddingplans for a reason.
Section 4: Spam- Spam is defined as commercial solicitation made for personal gain. The eBay auction you have created (regardless of wedding content), or trying to sell your services as a florist, photographer, musician, wedding consultant or any other position, is spam. Wedding professionals being available for advice in the community are welcome. Currently, we comment to the poster letting them know that advertising is against our policy and we delete the post.
Section 5: Drama Lama - You get into an e-fight with someone in WP. It escalates. Instead of keeping the drama in the comments (#6), you decide to make a new post about it in the community to show your displeasure and make a "GOODBYE, CRUEL WEDDINGPLANS!" send-off in style. Currently, we delete the post immediately to prevent even *more* drama from occuring and depending upon whether the poster is a repeat offender or not (i.e., has caused drama in the past, or is just trying to be heard and probably won't be an issue in the future) we may consider temporarily banning.
Section 6: Foul Language- You know what dirty words are. *wink wink* We understand the frustration that comes with wedding planning. Swearing, used in moderation, gets the point across. Currently, we ask that if you're going to swear like a sailor, you put it behind a lj-cut.
Section 7: Offensive Icons- Icons showing nudity, foul language, or excessive violence. Currently, if we get a complaint about an icon, we ask the owner of the icon to remedy the situation by removing the icon from the post/comment. This really hasn't been an issue that we've enforced unless we get complaints.
Section 8: Memes - Occasionally someone will post a really cool meme or quiz that everyone wants to try. Currently, we ask that members post their meme/quiz results in the first instance of that meme. If any additional posts of that meme show up in the community, we ask the member to delete the post and add their results to the original post.
Section 9: Large/Multiple images- This community defines large images as anything over 400 pixels by 400 pixels. Pictures of that size or larger, along with multiple images must be put behind a cut. Currently, if a member breaks this rule, we ask them to cut the image(s).
Section 10: Default font- Because custom colors and fonts can cause issues with other members' layouts and it's also hard on the eyes, our rule is currently that the default font style, size, and color must be used when posting in this community. We want all members to be able to easily read what's posted. Currently, when a member breaks this rule, we comment asking them to remedy the situation.
Section 11: Long URLs- Sometimes when a member posts a long URL, it can mess up the layout. Currently, if the URL is really long, we ask the member to use an anchor tag.
Section 12: Enforcement- We like to enforce the rules, but we can't monitor every single comment in every single post. We rely on y'all to let us know- either by a comment in our personal ljs, e-mail, etc. when something is going wrong. We try to enforce the rules as much as we can without being "Nazis." That being said, with over 2,500 members, it's hard to please everyone and we're trying to keep the peace in the best way we know how- by enforcing the rules that y'all decide upon. So, we'd like to know....
With over 2,500 members, it's time for us to revisit the community rules. This might lead to general shifts in what community rules are important and not important to our members, and thus, what rules we enforce. Mod Kristie and I would like your input on what rules you find important, what repercussions each rule should have, and how we can improve our moderator abilities.
Please feel free to use the comments section to give us constructive criticism, tell us we're doing a great job or voice your concerns. If you tell us you hate our moderating style, we promise not to hold it against you. I am a strong believer in putting on my "mod hat" and separating my personal opinions from the way I moderate. Likewise, I'll never tell you that you're getting a warning or about to be banned just because you hate outdoor weddings (I had an outdoor wedding). :-) So feel free to tell us how we're really doing. As always, your feedback is welcome at any time; comment to us in this post or e-mail us if you prefer that instead (lizzie9208 at livejournal dot com and/or kageneko at livejournal dot com). Our info is also in the Community Info.
For each of the following sections, you'll find a description of the rule along with our current method of enforcement. Then you'll be able to give us your input on how important you feel it is for us to enforce that rule and what action you think we should take when people break that rule in the future.
For the radio buttons, "1" means that the importance of us enforcing the rule is low, while "5" means it's really important to you that we enforce that particular rule. If you choose that a particular rule should be enforced by "Warning(s), then ban from the community", and then pick that a member should get "Unlimited warnings (no further consequence)", then that means that you think a member should never get banned for that offense. We only ban people in rare instances, after repeated offenses and when they continue to cause drama.
NOTE: You are welcome to change your answers at any time by clicking on the "Poll #xxxxx" link and then the "Fill Out Poll" link at the top of the page. I had to separate the polls into sections, so you'll have to hit your browser's "back" button to fill out each poll, or just right-click on each individual poll link and open it up in and new window/tab. Sorry about that!
Section 1: Personal Attacks- Eg: "snotty brats like you"; "people as delicate and hypocritical as you," "that's retarded," etc. Currently, we give two warnings for this offense and then ban the member if they continue to harass and attack our members.
How important is it to you that the moderators deal with personal attacks? (5-Very/1-Not)
1
31(8.7%)
2
29(8.2%)
3
72(20.3%)
4
87(24.5%)
5
136(38.3%)
What action(s) should the moderators take for personal attacks?
No intervention at all
16(4.5%)
A general reminder to the community, no names mentioned
60(17.0%)
Warning(s), then ban from the community
268(76.1%)
Ban with no warning
8(2.3%)
How many warnings should the member get for an infraction before further action is taken?
0
5(1.4%)
1
82(23.3%)
2
169(48.0%)
3
83(23.6%)
Unlimited warnings (no further consequence)
13(3.7%)
Delete the post?
Yes
115(32.7%)
No
237(67.3%)
Section 2: Offensive Generalizations- Eg: "white trash"; "farmers all tend to be alcoholics and get piss drunk at weddings"; "anyone pays more than $X for a dress is a selfish princess bridezilla with a filthy rich Daddy and doesn't know the value of hard earned money," etc. Currently, we give two warnings for this offense and then ban the member if they do not cooperate.
How important is it to you that the moderators deal with offensive generalizations? (5-Very/1-Not)
1
28(10.3%)
2
22(8.1%)
3
91(33.6%)
4
70(25.8%)
5
60(22.1%)
What action(s) should the moderators take for offensive generalizations?
No intervention at all
10(3.7%)
A general reminder to the community, no names mentioned
75(27.9%)
Warning(s), then ban from the community
183(68.0%)
Ban with no warning
1(0.4%)
How many warnings should the member get for an infraction before further action is taken?
0
7(2.6%)
1
50(18.7%)
2
125(46.8%)
3
59(22.1%)
Unlimited warnings (no further consequence)
26(9.7%)
Delete the post?
Yes
82(30.5%)
No
187(69.5%)
Section 3: Off-Topic Posts and One Line Squees - Eg: "Look at this HOTTT picture of my kitty cat!"; "I lost my job today. Then I went to get a root canal! Can this day get any worse?!"; "I'm getting married in 300 days!!!" Currently, we comment to the poster asking her/him to remedy the situation by either 1) making the post on-topic by adding some wedding-planning information to it, or 2) deleting it. If the poster does not comply after a reasonable amount of time, we delete it for her/him. We do this because this is NOT a general discussion group; we're called
weddingplans for a reason.How important is it to you that the moderators deal with off-topic posts? (5-Very/1-Not)
1
26(9.8%)
2
30(11.4%)
3
51(19.3%)
4
64(24.2%)
5
93(35.2%)
What action(s) should the moderators take for off-topic posts?
No intervention at all
14(5.4%)
A general reminder to the community, no names mentioned
130(50.0%)
Warning(s), then ban from the community
114(43.8%)
Ban with no warning
2(0.8%)
How many warnings should the member get for an infraction before further action is taken?
0
6(2.3%)
1
54(20.7%)
2
72(27.6%)
3
68(26.1%)
Unlimited warnings (no further consequence)
61(23.4%)
Delete the post?
Yes
180(69.0%)
No
81(31.0%)
Section 4: Spam- Spam is defined as commercial solicitation made for personal gain. The eBay auction you have created (regardless of wedding content), or trying to sell your services as a florist, photographer, musician, wedding consultant or any other position, is spam. Wedding professionals being available for advice in the community are welcome. Currently, we comment to the poster letting them know that advertising is against our policy and we delete the post.
How important is it to you that the moderators deal with spam? (5-Very/1-Not)
1
10(4.3%)
2
16(6.8%)
3
31(13.2%)
4
36(15.4%)
5
141(60.3%)
What action(s) should the moderators take for spam?
No intervention at all
5(2.2%)
A general reminder to the community, no names mentioned
29(12.6%)
Warning(s), then ban from the community
140(60.6%)
Ban with no warning
57(24.7%)
How many warnings should the member get for an infraction before further action is taken?
0
53(22.8%)
1
89(38.4%)
2
54(23.3%)
3
27(11.6%)
Unlimited warnings (no further consequence)
9(3.9%)
Delete the post?
Yes
189(82.2%)
No
41(17.8%)
Section 5: Drama Lama - You get into an e-fight with someone in WP. It escalates. Instead of keeping the drama in the comments (#6), you decide to make a new post about it in the community to show your displeasure and make a "GOODBYE, CRUEL WEDDINGPLANS!" send-off in style. Currently, we delete the post immediately to prevent even *more* drama from occuring and depending upon whether the poster is a repeat offender or not (i.e., has caused drama in the past, or is just trying to be heard and probably won't be an issue in the future) we may consider temporarily banning.
How important is it to you that the moderators deal with new posts created to fuel the drama? (5-Very/1-Not)
1
13(5.8%)
2
20(9.0%)
3
36(16.1%)
4
49(22.0%)
5
105(47.1%)
What action(s) should the moderators take for new drama-tastic posts?
No intervention at all
6(2.7%)
A general reminder to the community, no names mentioned
31(14.0%)
Warning(s), then ban from the community
149(67.1%)
Ban with no warning
36(16.2%)
How many warnings should the member get for an infraction before further action is taken?
0
38(17.4%)
1
95(43.4%)
2
50(22.8%)
3
29(13.2%)
Unlimited warnings (no further consequence)
7(3.2%)
Delete the post?
Yes
153(69.2%)
No
68(30.8%)
Section 6: Foul Language- You know what dirty words are. *wink wink* We understand the frustration that comes with wedding planning. Swearing, used in moderation, gets the point across. Currently, we ask that if you're going to swear like a sailor, you put it behind a lj-cut.
How important is it to you that the moderators deal with foul language? (5-Very/1-Not)
1
124(55.6%)
2
43(19.3%)
3
36(16.1%)
4
9(4.0%)
5
11(4.9%)
What action(s) should the moderators take for foul language?
No intervention at all
85(39.0%)
A general reminder to the community, no names mentioned
105(48.2%)
Warning(s), then ban from the community
27(12.4%)
Ban with no warning
1(0.5%)
How many warnings should the member get for an infraction before further action is taken?
0
35(16.2%)
1
11(5.1%)
2
31(14.4%)
3
37(17.1%)
Unlimited warnings (no further consequence)
102(47.2%)
Delete the post?
Yes
15(6.9%)
No
202(93.1%)
Section 7: Offensive Icons- Icons showing nudity, foul language, or excessive violence. Currently, if we get a complaint about an icon, we ask the owner of the icon to remedy the situation by removing the icon from the post/comment. This really hasn't been an issue that we've enforced unless we get complaints.
How important is it to you that the moderators deal with offensive icons? (5-Very/1-Not)
1
87(43.7%)
2
41(20.6%)
3
36(18.1%)
4
19(9.5%)
5
16(8.0%)
What action(s) should the moderators take for offensive icons?
No intervention at all
57(28.9%)
A general reminder to the community, no names mentioned
85(43.1%)
Warning(s), then ban from the community
55(27.9%)
Ban with no warning
0(0.0%)
How many warnings should the member get for an infraction before further action is taken?
0
23(11.7%)
1
22(11.2%)
2
39(19.9%)
3
36(18.4%)
Unlimited warnings (no further consequence)
76(38.8%)
Delete the post?
Yes
23(11.7%)
No
173(88.3%)
Section 8: Memes - Occasionally someone will post a really cool meme or quiz that everyone wants to try. Currently, we ask that members post their meme/quiz results in the first instance of that meme. If any additional posts of that meme show up in the community, we ask the member to delete the post and add their results to the original post.
How important is it to you that the moderators deal with memes? (5-Very/1-Not)
1
29(16.3%)
2
19(10.7%)
3
59(33.1%)
4
36(20.2%)
5
35(19.7%)
What action(s) should the moderators take for memes?
No intervention at all
17(9.7%)
A general reminder to the community, no names mentioned
118(67.0%)
Warning(s), then ban from the community
40(22.7%)
Ban with no warning
1(0.6%)
How many warnings should the member get for an infraction before further action is taken?
0
13(7.3%)
1
27(15.3%)
2
37(20.9%)
3
28(15.8%)
Unlimited warnings (no further consequence)
72(40.7%)
Delete the post?
Yes
107(61.1%)
No
68(38.9%)
Section 9: Large/Multiple images- This community defines large images as anything over 400 pixels by 400 pixels. Pictures of that size or larger, along with multiple images must be put behind a cut. Currently, if a member breaks this rule, we ask them to cut the image(s).
How important is it to you that the moderators deal with large/multiple images? (5-Very/1-Not)
1
17(9.8%)
2
22(12.6%)
3
47(27.0%)
4
40(23.0%)
5
48(27.6%)
What action(s) should the moderators take for large/multiple images?
No intervention at all
10(5.8%)
A general reminder to the community, no names mentioned
99(57.2%)
Warning(s), then ban from the community
64(37.0%)
Ban with no warning
0(0.0%)
How many warnings should the member get for an infraction before further action is taken?
0
7(4.0%)
1
20(11.6%)
2
37(21.4%)
3
31(17.9%)
Unlimited warnings (no further consequence)
78(45.1%)
Delete the post?
Yes
39(22.5%)
No
134(77.5%)
Section 10: Default font- Because custom colors and fonts can cause issues with other members' layouts and it's also hard on the eyes, our rule is currently that the default font style, size, and color must be used when posting in this community. We want all members to be able to easily read what's posted. Currently, when a member breaks this rule, we comment asking them to remedy the situation.
How important is it to you that the moderators deal with font colors/sizes other than the default font? (5-Very/1-Not)
1
50(29.8%)
2
27(16.1%)
3
36(21.4%)
4
20(11.9%)
5
35(20.8%)
What action(s) should the moderators take for non-default font styles?
No intervention at all
36(21.7%)
A general reminder to the community, no names mentioned
84(50.6%)
Warning(s), then ban from the community
46(27.7%)
Ban with no warning
0(0.0%)
How many warnings should the member get for an infraction before further action is taken?
0
9(5.4%)
1
19(11.4%)
2
32(19.3%)
3
29(17.5%)
Unlimited warnings (no further consequence)
77(46.4%)
Delete the post?
Yes
25(15.1%)
No
141(84.9%)
Section 11: Long URLs- Sometimes when a member posts a long URL, it can mess up the layout. Currently, if the URL is really long, we ask the member to use an anchor tag.
How important is it to you that the moderators deal with long URLs? (5-Very/1-Not)
1
65(39.4%)
2
34(20.6%)
3
33(20.0%)
4
12(7.3%)
5
21(12.7%)
What action(s) should the moderators take for long URLs?
No intervention at all
50(30.9%)
A general reminder to the community, no names mentioned
84(51.9%)
Warning(s), then ban from the community
28(17.3%)
Ban with no warning
0(0.0%)
How many warnings should the member get for an infraction before further action is taken?
0
13(8.0%)
1
16(9.8%)
2
20(12.3%)
3
21(12.9%)
Unlimited warnings (no further consequence)
93(57.1%)
Delete the post?
Yes
23(14.0%)
No
141(86.0%)
Section 12: Enforcement- We like to enforce the rules, but we can't monitor every single comment in every single post. We rely on y'all to let us know- either by a comment in our personal ljs, e-mail, etc. when something is going wrong. We try to enforce the rules as much as we can without being "Nazis." That being said, with over 2,500 members, it's hard to please everyone and we're trying to keep the peace in the best way we know how- by enforcing the rules that y'all decide upon. So, we'd like to know....
How important is it to you that the moderators enforce any of the rules at all? (5-Very/1-Not)
1
7(3.5%)
2
10(5.0%)
3
48(24.1%)
4
63(31.7%)
5
71(35.7%)
Anything else you'd like to tell us about our moderating style?
- mood:
productive
Profile
- weddingplans
- Wedding Plans
Page Summary
purpledaffodil : (no subject) [+13] - charcoalmonroe : (no subject) [+7]
- licking_suntan : (no subject) [+0]
- thejoysofjess : (no subject) [+6]
- dkwedding : Post Deletion [+9]
- opheliasmusing : (no subject) [+0]
- bean668 : (no subject) [+1]
- a_dream_weaver : (no subject) [+2]
- notmargaret : (no subject) [+1]
- sillyjilli_bean : (no subject) [+3]
- in_da_lifeworld : (no subject) [+2]
- faecat : (no subject) [+3]
- purple_onyx : (no subject) [+1]
- 1999 : (no subject) [+1]
- toofarfallen : (no subject) [+1]
Comments
It got deleted no warning or email sent.
That being said, "on-topic" is open to interpretation. If your post was two paragaphs about Valentine's day gifts, and then one sentence about "Oh, so in order to make this on topic, do you follow the tradition of exchanging gifts before the wedding day?", then it was clearly a stretch to make it on topic. If your post was primarily about wedding day gifts for each other and had a sentence about V-day gifts at the end, then that's on-topic. If the majority of the post is about wedding planning in some form or fashion, then you're good to go. If the majority of it is about something else (how your cat dragged toilet paper from your bathroom yesterday, for example), then it'd be off-topic.
I apologize for the fact that no explanation was given as to why it was deleted. Sometimes we're just too busy to write a diplomatic "This was off-topic." response and link you to the rules, other times we just screw up. So I'm sorry about that.
There is, of course,
moderating style:
so far, so good- i think we can be lax on some things (profanity in rant posts or icons) but definitely vigilant on others (spam, drama-lama, totally offensive posts).
i've been a member since may or so of 2006, and i've definitely seen the community change and grow- sometimes for the better, and sometimes this place flares up with drama. other times it's slow as hell, and then the next day, there's like, 6 posts in a row about invitations- sometimes it's annoying in the latter regard, but that's why i love this community- there might be 6 posts in a row about invites, but i can glean great info from each one.
my only pet peeve are polls- if they're long, they should go behind a cut. i think ppl should also be forward-thinking enough to check WP first before submitting a poll- i know the other day there were like, 3 or 4 huge polls just about age. it's great that you're curious, but please check and see what's been done first. perhaps y'all should create a "polls" tag- that way ppl can see what's been recently polled, and maybe revisit others that were posted ages ago & they want updated info. *end rant about polls*
like i said, great work so far- i'm finally getting used to the new layout. this is probably my favorite community b/c of how diverse it is and the wealth of info i can get on any given day. i had no idea it was this big, and i definitely appreciate your willingness to revisit the rules and workings of the community, and to solicit feedback from the members in the process.
You have an excellent point. LJ cut instructions are buried within LJ now, so it'd be helpful to link people to it when we ask them to use it. :-)
I have a question though (I might have missed this from before), are we allowed to tag entries that aren't ours? I know that might improve the frequency of posts. Especially if there has been like 30 invite questions...are we allowed to just tell them to search the tags?
How do you judge what posts are on-topic? Sometimes there are posts that do have to do with weddings, but are of no use to anyone but the poster (if even that). I feel like unless the post includes pictures or offers GOOD advice or asks a question, I don't care. Sometimes I feel like certain posts are more appropriate in someone's personal LJ. I know you don't want to go crazy policing those, but is there any way we can set some guidelines on that? Even if the posts are related to weddings, with so many people in the community, we can't all post every time we do something for the wedding.
1) how important the information is to the other community members
2) what percentage of the post is actually about wedding planning (i.e., if you write five paragraphs and only two sentences of the five paragraphs is about wedding planning, it's off-topic).
A post can be on-topic by having one of the criteria without the other. For example, as much as I personally hate them, a post about a wedding planning nightmare you had is technically on-topic because it's about wedding planning, although in the grand scheme of things, it's not really that important to other community members. At least, that's what I've gathered by the few amount of comments those posts get verses the more "hot topic" issues, like name change, sex, registries, etc. :-)
It's hard to say "This post doesn't offer good advice" because "good" is objective. We're all of different minds and who's to say that what I think is pointless advice or a pointless post is something that someone else will get a lot out of? You're definitely right, that sometimes certain posts are more appropriate for someone's personal lj, but it's hard to draw that line and I'm not willing to step up to the plate and make that line. :-) My hope is that people will figure it out for themselves based upon the number of comments they get- if they get few or no comments, they'll realize that perhaps this wasn't the best forum to post that information, and they'll learn that for next time they want to post something of that nature. But in the meantime, we just have to suck it up and wade through some of the more pointless posts, hoping that some member, somewhere, gets something beneficial out of them. :-)
On the other side of things, I do try and only tag entries that I know are beneficial to the majority of members in the community. If someone tagged their entry with "RSVP" because they got 4 RSVPs in the mail yesterday, that's not helpful to people who will use that tag in the future. So I remove the tag for them, thereby making it easier for people who want to search for RSVP designs, questions, advice, meal choices, etc. that are in the tags. Since the tag feature only shows the 100 most recent entries with that specific tag, it's important to me to make those the best 100 possible!
Thats difficult to me... I dont know how to report things if need be and sometimes MODs dont always see all comments
You can always e-mail me or Kristie and just give us a head's up- I usually check my e-mail more often than I check
also, default font is important. font is personal!!
let the people who cant deal with the rules start their own OMGIHATEWEDDINGPLANSTHEYRENAZIS group... a 2500+ person group makes it that much more important that everyone stay on topic.
As for people who don't like the community's rules creating their own...we've had several people do that.
I think you guys keep up wonderfully well with this community. I know I've only been a member for about a week now, but I feel very welcome here, and it's always interesting to read about others' opinions and get awesome feedback. True, we may not all agree with the advice we're given, but (from what I've seen so far) people present their opinions in a non-confrontational way, so it's not too hard to hear.
I don't know how you can run this and
makes me feel like i'm slow/crazy.
Thanks for all the work you do in the forum. Question...I recently left a comment about wedding reviews and how I thought that they were a tad uncouth and that post seems to have been deleted. Did I do something wrong?